<\/p>\n
\u201cThe only Japanese person I am talking to right now is my wife\u201d \u2026 Eddie Jones on the persistent reports that he could defect to Japan Rugby. <\/span>Credit: <\/span> Steven Siewert<\/cite><\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> I\u2019m good, mate.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> But you\u2019ve been under fierce attack from everybody, including me, and that cannot be easy.<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> To be honest, the only thing I\u2019m worried about is this: have I been committed to the team? Yes. Have I tried to do what I said I was going to do? Yes. And that\u2019s all I can do. And if people tend to judge it another way, then so be it.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> Sure, but do you not wake in the wee hours and stare at the cracks in the ceiling, as the lights of Coogee twinkle in the distance, and say, \u201cJesus, how did this happen? I\u2019ve had an unparalleled record of coaching success. And yet this whole World Cup campaign has been a f—ing disaster\u201d?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> Fitzy, you know when I took the job, I had three months with the team, and they already had a losing record. I could have kept the team as it was. And maybe, maybe,<\/i> we would have struggled into the quarter-finals like 2019. I knew the Wallabies weren\u2019t good enough. So I used the first two Tests to work out the status of the squad, and then I had to make a decision, right? And I gambled, mate, I 100 per cent gambled, and the actual difference between what we maybe could have done with a more established team and what we did do is so minimal. Now, it\u2019s been blown out to be massive. And obviously it is, not making the quarter-finals, but the difference came down to one play in one game, against Fiji. So I don\u2019t look back and say, \u201cShit, I wish I would have done this, I wish I wouldn\u2019t have done that.\u201d My only regret is maybe being foolish enough to take on the challenge of trying to change the team in such a short period of time.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> What about when you\u2019re out and about, back in Australia? What has been the reaction of the rugby community to you?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> Fine. I was in a Coogee chicken shop the other day and a bloke came up with his son, and whispers in my ear, \u201cTell the press to go and piss off.\u201d<\/p>\n Eddie Jones in action in 1989.<\/span>Credit: <\/span>Jack Atley<\/cite><\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> I\u2019m right here, so you might as well tell me!<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> Look, there\u2019s people who are obviously really aggrieved by Australia not making the quarter-finals and there are people who realise that, yes, we needed to change and we needed to change the squad and we brought forward young players who at the moment aren\u2019t quite good enough! But if that\u2019s the biggest sin I\u2019ve committed, well, I\u2019m happy to ride with that.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> You say you picked players who \u201cweren\u2019t quite good enough\u201d. I don\u2019t ask you to name them but was it a serious error of judgment to take the most junior, inexperienced squad in the entire World Cup, leaving behind experienced five-eighths like Quade Cooper and Bernard Foley, let alone long-time captain Michael Hooper? Looking back was that an error?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> The situation reminded me of when Wayne Bennett let Wally Lewis go. No one could quite understand why, but Wally Lewis wasn\u2019t a great role model for the rest of the team. And for those guys, I don\u2019t think they were the right role models for the team going forward. Don\u2019t get me wrong. They\u2019re not bad guys. But you need guys \u2013 particularly when you\u2019ve got a team like Australia has at the moment \u2013 you need guys who are obsessed<\/i> with winning, obsessed <\/i>with being good, and those three are past those stages.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> All right, in terms of being a great role model, that does seem particularly harsh on the great Michael Hooper to me, but …<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> I stand by it, 100 per cent. He is a great guy but the timing is not right for him.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> OK, I\u2019ve described you as a cross between the Messiah of world rugby coaching and a human cattle prod guaranteed to get quick results out of every team you come across, but obviously this year with only two victories in total, do you question your own abilities? Do you ever think, \u201cShit, maybe I\u2019ve lost it?\u201d<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> I just tried to bite off too much. But this is the thing. I don\u2019t like to amble. I\u2019ve never been an ambler, and I could have quite easily taken the soft road, and kept the squad as it was. And we\u2019re the ninth or 10th-ranked team in the world at the moment and the quicker we accept that and the quicker we then decide how we\u2019re going to get out of this, the better. And we\u2019ve been the 7th, 8th, 9th or 10th-ranked for 20 years, and progressively getting worse. But what I\u2019m saying is I\u2019ve set a path now for this young group of players to be good at the 2027 World Cup.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> All right, you will likely recall my own lack of rugby nous. But to reprise the central theme of my own public criticism, I could never understand how at the Wallaby trainings you had drones in the sky feeding computers, and a support person for every player, but come the actual Tests, when Fiji kicked the ball high, no one under it called out, \u201cMine!\u201d And when we were down with a minute to go and had one chance \u2013 to keep the ball in hand and score a try \u2013 they kicked it! I just cannot get my head around an Eddie Jones-coached team playing like that?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> I take responsibility for that. The only two things I\u2019ve probably been guilty of is being too combative with the media, and I probably bit off more than I could chew with the team in a short period of time.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> One of my other criticisms is that you\u2019ve been given too much control, with no selectors, and picking your own assistant coaches etc. Going forward, would you be prepared to cede any of that control?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> No, no, no, not at all. That\u2019s what I\u2019m paid to do. But in terms of selections, I have been consulting the most intellectual rugby person in Australia to support my selection or contest them. I can\u2019t tell you his name because I\u2019d be breaking his confidence. You\u2019ve played with him. He\u2019s the brightest rugby brain in Australia. I\u2019ve had more meetings with him than with a nominated selector, and they\u2019re the people you want helping you, so I don\u2019t buy into that at all.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> Would this person be inclined to wear Randwick\u2019s myrtle green for his jim-jams?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> He possibly could.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> All right, in terms of giving you resources, has Rugby Australia fulfilled its contractual obligations to you?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> Well, if we can go back a step, when I was asked to have a look at Australia, I said I\u2019d only do it on certain conditions. Because I\u2019ve seen over 20 years the deterioration in Australian Rugby, while the rest of the world moved forward. There\u2019s very few countries now that aren\u2019t optimising the preparation with their top players. You can call it centralisation. But to me, it\u2019s optimisation of your top players, with the national coach having control of the preparation of your best. You\u2019ve seen the quality of the teams in the quarter-finals. The Wallabies can\u2019t live with that. And the problem is our system, which is so antiquated when you compare with the rest of the world. It\u2019s like a Toyota Corolla from decades ago, at the beginning of professionalism. You put the key in and it doesn\u2019t quite work. The demister doesn\u2019t quite work, and you\u2019ve got to stick your hand out to turn right. No one would buy that, and we\u2019ve still got an antiquated system from the start of professional rugby.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> So has Australian Rugby given you the resources to change that?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> Well, they want to change it and that obviously takes money, like anything. Yeah, they want to upgrade, to go from a Corolla to a Tesla. It takes a lot of technology, a lot of money, a lot of effort and a lot of design. And in reality, I saw myself as a bit of a catalyst to help change that. But this is a six-year turnaround. It\u2019s not a short turnaround. We haven\u2019t won the World Cup in 24 years, and we haven\u2019t won the Bledisloe in 22 years. Just have a look at those two stats. But to change it you need money and you need power. And in rugby, generally money drives power, not the other way around.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> And if you stay on board, are you going to get the money you need?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> Well, they want to do it, [Rugby Australia chair] Hamish McLennan and [CEO] Phil Waugh, and are 100 per cent committed to doing it, but whether they can is the $64 question.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> I suspect closer to $64 million. But you say it will be a six-year turnaround. That\u2019s not what you said a few months ago. You said, you journalistic bastards can eat<\/i> it \u2013 because we\u2019re going to win this World Cup!<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> Well, what would have happened if I had said, \u201cWe\u2019re going to struggle to make the first round\u201d?<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> Sure, but quietly, did you think, \u201cWe are going to struggle in this World Cup\u201d?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> Look, I knew that, 100 per cent. You\u2019ve only got to look at it: we\u2019ve got one Super Rugby side that bats 40 per cent against NZ sides. And the other four bat 20 per cent. So what you\u2019re looking for [a national side to win, with that as your base] is miracles. I still think I can produce miracles. But I wasn\u2019t able to do it.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> How is your relationship with Hamish and Phil?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> Good enough. But there\u2019s two parts to being committed. There\u2019s me being committed and there\u2019s them being committed to make the changes. And I think they are, but Australia\u2019s a difficult environment right now, how antiquated we are in our thinking and the way we do things, and we\u2019re still so territorial.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> There are rumours abroad, that what you most want to do is to walk \u2013 with a payout from Rugby Australia. Is that true?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> Definitely not. A payout has got nothing to do with it. It\u2019s about whether we can make the change to make Australian Rugby strong. Rugby Australia has to play its part, I\u2019ve got to play my part, and then we\u2019re gonna decide whether we\u2019re on the same pathway or not.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> OK. You\u2019re in Britain now to coach the Barbarians against Wales. Where do you go from there?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> My wife and I go to Okinawa in Japan, for a holiday.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> Now<\/i> we\u2019re getting close! Japan. The Herald\u2019s<\/em> Tom Decent broke the story in the Herald<\/em> that before the World Cup, you\u2019d effectively had a job interview with the Japanese Rugby Union. That\u2019s been followed up by other media organisations around the world using sources of their own. Eddie, you\u2019re talking to me,<\/i> mate. It strains credulity, that the SMH<\/em>, the ABC, the Tele<\/em>, the UK Telegraph<\/em> and multiple Japanese outlets, all using their own sources, have all got the story wrong. What do you say to that?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> It\u2019s false.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> I don\u2019t think it\u2019s false. But moving on.<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> There\u2019s no named source for these stories, so there\u2019s no credibility about the story to start with. Secondly, the president of Japan Rugby happens to be a very close associate of mine. Every time I go to Japan, I have coffee with him. We talk about rugby. Have I met Japanese representatives? Yes. But I have done that for 30 years.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> OK, so now we\u2019re getting warmer still! When was the last time you met with or talked with a Japanese rugby official?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> I think I had dinner with one, maybe February.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> [I express my dismay.] All right. So here\u2019s the next key question. If the story is false, why not tell the Japanese media, who is saying you are a leading candidate with someone else, and that the next round of interviews is in early November \u2013 when, goodness, you\u2019ll be in Japan, what are the chances?<\/i> \u2013 that the story is false, and I am NOT available.<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> Because that\u2019s not my job to do. To respond to every rumour that\u2019s been said about me, I\u2019d need a full-time PR person. All I can do is what I\u2019m contracted to do, which I\u2019ve been doing, and I\u2019ve been 100 per cent committed to Australia.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> But you must have a fallback position? A club? A franchise? A nation? What are you going to do?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> I\u2019m so pissed off with the situation now. I\u2019m really pissed off with what has happened. Look, I take responsibility for the bad results. But I don\u2019t take responsibility for 20 years of decline of Australian rugby. And that\u2019s what\u2019s trying to be pinned on me: 20 years of decline; that I\u2019m an unsavory character, all these sorts of things, and anyone that knows me knows that\u2019s not the truth. Right? That\u2019s what\u2019s trying to be pinned on me at the moment. So I don\u2019t really care what happens after this. But I want to make sure that we\u2019re leaving Australian rugby in a better place. And if there\u2019s a realisation that, yes, we need to change, then it\u2019ll be worth what I\u2019ve done.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> OK, let me try one last bouncer. Just say that four years from now, in the unlikely event that you are the CEO of Rugby Australia and the even more unlikely event that I am Wallaby coach … Let\u2019s say I have been resolutely denying having been interviewed by the South African Rugby Union to take over coaching the Springboks, but you find out I have been lying through my teeth. Would you or wouldn\u2019t you feel within your rights to sack me outright?<\/p>\n EJ:<\/strong> The only thing I\u2019d ask: did it affect your performance? The world is about having conversations. Don\u2019t tell me people don\u2019t have conversations about jobs? We all know that happens? Yep? We\u2019re not living in kindergarten. We all know that happens. Right? These discussions happen all the time. So getting back to your question, I\u2019ll be sitting down, I\u2019ll be saying, \u201cIs it affecting his job performance?\u201d If it\u2019s not, then forget about it. Get on with the job. If it\u2019s affecting your performance, and you\u2019re distracted, taking time off and you\u2019re sneaking off to places. Yes, then I\u2019d have a problem with it.<\/p>\n Fitz:<\/strong> That sounds to me like you\u2019re prevaricating. Back in 2015, you were with the South African Stormers, when similar rumours came out about you going to England and you said, \u201cI\u2019m not going to England!\u201d \u201cI\u2019m not going to England!\u201d Six days later you went to England.<\/p>\n<\/p>\n